Maybe because many of the frequenters are from the UK on that forum (since that is where the website is centralized), and Sony UK hasn't really been price friendly to the UK from what I have gathered there on that forum.

I find the prices a little high, but not too much in the US to steer me away from a buy if indeed it is something I want. I don't know about the UK tho (really I don't). Seems that they are getting relief from some of the products now but that generally speaking the UK have it harder than the rest?

And I don't know if the ones complaining are from the UK mainly or not, its just a guess, musing outloud.

Carl

Not just the UK..
You can find them easily right now because SURE is the boogie man. Even if the prices are still in the line between Canon and Nikon.
There are some really long term UK complainers and often when you nail it down.. Sony is often still in there with Canon and Nikon.. especially with the new cameras that it is clear are being made with global distribution in mind. I agree the UK prices in general are scary at times from almost all companies..

Maybe b/c they are all broke and don't make enough money to support their fantasy lifestyle of a bajillion Sony products...

Make more money.

pinch pennies, that is why they are rich.

I doubt it is because they are broke.

Hahaha I'm broke. That's why I would complain, but I know I can't buy it, so, I stay out of it. When I get the money, I splurge on this. I wouldn't complain about it, but I've read enough economics to know why they'd do the things they are. Like you said, Eric, the rich got that way because they pinch pennies. As bad as it is, we don't have a free market anymore which means lesser competition and the market starts acting like the government: central management. Whatever top brass says, goes. Don't wanna get political, but I think the photo industry's market is one that could use far less gov't intervention. I'll still give it to sony for making a brand new venture and I'll still buy their stuff even though it hurts my wallet.
--Kiran

...You can't really pinch pennies when the market is at a fixed price...

Back to making more money?

...pinch pennies everywhere you can though...that's how you keep money...

Hi Ken,

I agree and it annoys the heck out of me. We should be very happy that Sony is coming out with all these great products and in such a short space of time. This is clearly the most innovative flash in a long long time (perhaps since Minolta first introduced wireless flash), and appears to fix a couple of the main complaints users have had with the old 56 (namely the lack of ratio control in groups). We should be pleased, and most are, but there will always be the small minority that spoil things.

I live in the UK and whilst most things generally cost more here than in the states it's a fact of life- don't like it then we can make our voices heard with a free vote! I have to say that at the moment Sony isn't too bad price wise here, the HVL-f42AM is very keenly priced compared with the Nikon SB600 and Canon 430EX and the 56 seems to be in a similar scenario- i.e. not too bad.

Sure, there are some lenses than cost more (just look at the 300 mm) however there is usually a good reason for it, either because it's a low volume hand made lens, or as is the case with the 300 mm G, because it performs better. If you don't believe me check out the MTF chart for the 300 G compared with the Canon 300 mm f2.8 IS! I was stunned at the difference (the Sony performing much better).

Anyway, end of my 'semi-rant' the flash looks great and hopefully points to great things. So far Sony have delivered on every 'promise' and seem keen to listen to our suggestions/complaints- that is something to be valued!

Cheers
Andrew

Let me say up front that I am no flash expert. I own the Sony 56 which I got for $310 from B&H a year or so ago. The better Nikon SB-800 was/is $315 but I was OK with the pricing. Sony has jacked the price of the 56 to $450 which I personally think is MUCH too high for this flash.

With my limited knowledge I also think the 58 priced at $500 is too high. Please educate me why it is worth $500 when the Nikon SB-800 is $315 and the weather-sealed Canon 580 EX II is $420 (currently on sale for $390). What makes the 58 worth $185 more than the Nikon and $80 more that the Canon? What makes it more advanced than the competition? The only obvious thing to me is the new swivel functionality and I think it remains to be seen how effective that is.

Thanks for the help.

Firstly it's the MRRP, the Canon and Nikon MRSP are very similar. The price should drop when it is launched and has been out a little while. Remember the SB800 has been out a few years and as such the price will naturally drop.

Living in the UK I'm not completely sure how Sony's SURE program will effect the flash price, the way I see it (and I could be completely wrong) is that they set the minimum price. There is nothing preventing Sony dropping the price in 6 months or so.

Also we haven't seen the flash perform yet, it 'may' be significantly better than the other maker's equivalent flash.

Andrew

All the rich people I know got rich by outliving the people that pinch pennies. :P

The dpreview people would whine no matter what Sony announced. Many of those folk don't own a Sony DSLR and have no intention of owning one. They're just there to stir up the pot.

In my career in Marketing we constantly came across a UK trait. The country is full of people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. We also knew that customers remember the quality long after they have forgotten the price. I don,t remember Minolta being all that cheap across the range. Canon have succeeded because they make good products. Sony also have a reputation for making good products. In the TV store Sony is never the cheapest but my 10 year old Sony TV and VHS is still working. Guess what brand my new TV will be! BMW, Mercedes Benz, all suffer from being "too expensive" but the BMW 3 series is the largest selling model in Europe because of preceived value.

Sorry this has turned into a rant!!

That is too true Glyn.

I think people should remember the prices of photographic equipment just a few years ago- it was much much more for considerably less. As I said before, those on Dpreview should wait until the unit is shipping and we know how it performs.

Also, with regards to the BMW 3 series- it's a big selling car because it is very, very good and always has been.

Andrew

remember that Sony is not yet a dominant player in the DSLR market. That honor goes to Canon and Nikon. Like it or not people are going to compare everything Sony does to the big 2. This is the way people and markets work. If a new manufacturer enters the market they will be compared with the dominant players. The new player needs something extra - value, performance, price, etc - to make a dent. So when Sony comes out with a product it will be compared with those from C&N. When the Sony item has a higher price than the C or N product it needs to have a good reason IMO.

And remember here in the states with SURE it is MMRP - Manufacturer Mandated Retail Price. Sony is the only one who can adjust the price of the Alpha products. Can they adjust as quickly as the retailers? Will Sony be quicker than the retailers have been in the past? Is SURE going to help or hurt? I think only time will tell.

Last time I checked, the SB-800 AF Speedlight was £200, Canon 580EX was £270, and the HVLF56AM ws about £275-280 odd (its gone up £40 recently), now with this new unit..it could hit £350 (a rough guess). Thats the most expensive flash from a maker on the market. Let's be fair, the new 42 unit is not a bad price at all £150 ish maybe a touch more. But if Ken is wondering why some are moaning, well..can you blame anyone? Even the alpha lens caps are twice the price of nikon original ones. Something sure isnt saying "competitive" to me.

My advice to anyone, is simple. If you think you are getting a fair deal, then go buy. If you don't, do not buy. I would have no worries buying a 42 flash, its a fair price. The only good thing about this is maybe it will drop the price on the older model units. Same for all sony stuff, if its priced poorly, I wont buy it. Lenses or whatever..so I just get another maker instead, they get the cash, thanks very much. Good business is where you find it. Sony will learn it has to be close to its rivals on prices, or they wont get the sales. My lens purchases from sony are 0. Tamron make the money off me, or I get stuff on ebay. You don't have to be genius to work it all out ;-)

Clearly sony can price low, as the UK price for the A200 demonstrates (£289 with kit is the best price I have seen). Nice one..shame about the other stuff that you put on it! No problems to me, I will just buy a sony body..and every other maker will get my money for the rest!

The problem with Glyn R's comments, sure we do know the price of everything! But with prices so poor, can you blame us? I will pay a high price for top quality, I am just, as of yet..not convinced I get that extra quality from sony. And back to tv's..who makes the best TV's now? It begins with S, but its not sony!

It would be a toss up between Sony and Samsung for TV's. I think that LG might represent a better bang for the buck under certain circumstances.

fjbyrne wrote:

Let me say up front that I am no flash expert. I own the Sony 56 which I got for $310 from B&H a year or so ago. The better Nikon SB-800 was/is $315 but I was OK with the pricing. Sony has jacked the price of the 56 to $450 which I personally think is MUCH too high for this flash.

Thanks for the help.

-------------------------------------------
OK.. Key points:
The SB-800 is a four year old product. That I think retailed at release at $450-$500.
The cost per-unit using pretty standard accounting practices is lower once the R&D, tooling, and Go to Market cost have been recovered. So now after 4 years of doing nothing new, Nikon has the luxury of having a lower cost per unit. Kudos to Nikon to getting the design right.

The Canon 580 EX II still sells in the Mid $400 to $500 area most places.

The F58AM will be as good if not a better flash for a very comparable RELEASE price. That price will stay pretty constant until the early adopters who value new and/or features over saving cash. They will help retire those initial R&D, tooling and marketing costs faster so Sony can then adjust price as needed to compete mature product to mature product.

For all the gnashing of teeth over Sure.. what we have seen is lots or price drops. The F56AM jump from $310 at a few key dealers to $450 is the only real major shift up we have seen. I have a pretty good idea of why. Sony has stopped making them and we were seeing typical end of market life pricing starting. Problem (if you can call it that): Indications are that the Sony A200/A300/A350 strategy is paying off. We see it in the higher cost and lower availability of used glass. Sony does not want to run out of F56AMs before the F58AM is ready to take over top position. Also if you have the demand and limited supply it is good business to optimize price. I suspect one of two things will happen in August / September the prices of the F56AM will come down or we will see supplies dwindle and if that happens before the F58AM is ready to go.. price will go UP!!!

Some of the DPR complain corps has actually been saying they don't think that there will be another A700 level camera that it will be all Consumer after this... Problem is the coming glass and this new flash say otherwise.. but there are some that will never let the information get in the way of a good anti-Sony attitude.

What is clear is Sony is serious about taking on Canon and Nikon and they have made major commitments. Time for us that rode this out versus jumping... to ride the wave.

As to SURE.. Sure is part of building out the important small, local, informed dealer market. Most of us have been begging for. I expect that is will vanish in a few months when new dealers are established and able to compete as they have with Canon and Nikon based on knowledge and service... but for now.. They need some AsSUREance they can make some money to start with the line that they have not seen traffic with or taken the time to learn. I general it seems Sony is looking on higher end products to stop just assuming mass market is best. This is coming just when the DSLR business needed it.

In Seattle we are already seeing it shift in a local chain of about a dozen stores (NOT RITZ OWNED) they have gone from stocking a bit of Sony to making major space on the shelf and more in stock items like lenses you can try there in the store. This shift is only needed if Sony is serious about the Pro-AM market where a diverse channel is needed. If they were just about consumer cameras it wouldn't matter.

As long as Sony keeps key prices at or below comparable Canon and Nikon products it doesn't matter if there are a few heavy discounters missing on the Internet. That even counts if the camera is cheaper without a "printer" as Canon is with free printer (even thought If true I don't like that aspect of SURE). Also.. the mandated Minimum is NOT the MSRP.. and one dealer on DPR that has seen the SURE contract has confirmed that.

The key thing to remember, is you may not like a price but odds are Sony has real reason for that price. So the comments we see sometimes that "Sony is stupid or crazy" are silly. The main problem for the market laggards (those that wait for final discounts and where price is the top decider) Sony has only TWO products that have hit the end of life or cash cow status (established products with no marketing costs etc needed any more). So when comparing Sony prices to long established products like the Nikon SB-800 Sony will cost more.. this will change in the next year or more as more Sony products reach that end of life of cash cow status.

I honestly am deeply puzzled how anyone can support, what is nothing other than, "re-sale price maintenance"
Bad for customers and users, bad for pr with sony, bad for retailers..and no doubt the reason best buy said thanks, but no thanks. There is nothing good about it! Its anti competitive. Now, over here, it wont matter...because the prices are so bad, hell how worse could they get. But RPM, is deeply frowned upon, and it wouldnt hold up for 5 mins with the EU courts (yes they can do a few good things)

What is good about paying more??? You tell me. Seriously..nothing! Do we care how much profit sony makes? Or any other company come to that..nope. As a consumer I am interested in the product, and a if I get value for money, that does not mean I wont pay for quality..but that I am not going to pony up for overpricing. And, sony should be well aware of previous markets..that are now gone. They "used" to make computer monitors, and dumped out, the koreans beat them at their own game. Who says they cannot in camera land? People like a deal, sony may sell a ton of lower end A bodies, and kit lenses..thats not enough. They are pricing themselves out of the market, and at such an early stage, thats a very silly thing to do.

Sony has for the longest time catered to your kind.. letting the big price discounters run the show.. because price is everything.

They are need better quality outlets for consumers who expect more from a store then a low price and average to poor support.

You also like many may assume a few things:

A) Sony is the only one doing this ... unlikely
B) That low prices are ALWAYs pro-consumer.. they are not.. when they reach an extreme the create Wal Mart problems.. inferior products sold like they are the normal product but are actually cheaper made Wal mart versions. You loose any choice in the market. Before I buy anything a Wal Mart or even Costco I check compare manufacturer part #s etc.. Have seen more than one person pick up a piece of computer equipment there to get it home and find cable is extra so not really cheaper or uses cheaper parts like non removable antennas on routers..
C) You assume that managed prices are always higher prices.. soon after sure happened Sony moved a bunch of prices down.

Also it is assumed all prices have to be the same.. which has been confirmed as not true just a range of discounts can be offered.

Finally.. you and many others may assume the lower price is the best deal:
Until you hit a really low price and you find a scam

Many less researched buyers will price the camera and then over pay for batteries and memory cards and bags etc. No knowing they just got hosed because the camera was "such a deal"

Those discount places have to make a profit too... what often happens is the low price is used to hook people ... into higher shipping, poor support, or no returns, etc. IE Airlines are now taking the cost of luggage out of the price so you choose the cheapest flight only to find you are now owing at the counter $60 for checked bags that used to be part of the service.

But in this case. I value having good local dealers selling products I want. This is a way to build that. It doesn't put more cash in Sony pocket directly. It has to expand their retail channels so they can compete in new areas to work. Sony has always has 100% control of their margin on a product. In the US the Sony Style stores are so few and so generalized that they really are a way Sony will make more by having similar prices.

I get that in a world were people believe there can be "free health-care" and that you can lower the price of gas by increasing taxes on oil companies that math that gets past 4-2 = 2 is too much, that systems with loss leaders, and hidden costs, etc. Just puzzle some people.

In the US that's what could get unqualified people elected this year.

The point I am trying to make Ken, is this.

There is no need to try to control retailer prices, because...manufacturers set their wholesale price! There will always be discounters around, and they tend to have big buying power. I don't see this as something that is bad for the consumer. It also looks bad, for sony, yet again, to even get involved in this type of thing. When was the last time someone complained that they got a good deal? In a world of rising oil prices, you can be sure that people are going to pay a lot more attention to getting a bargain. Cost of living has increased a huge degree recently, camera super sales bubble has to burst some time.

the more I steer towards it not being a good idea.

Most people wont even know SURE exists at all, they will just see a price on a camera or lens. However, if they want a discounted price, the retail is bound to use that as an excuse as to why they cannot.

If they do, the buyer isn't going to want to hear about a SURE program or buy the reasoning behind it. This will only leave a bad taste in the buyers mouth.

I just cant see why anyone but a retailer would want this. And after you think more on it, if the buyers quit buying, that only hurts all the retailers, not just one. (assuming an unlikely worst case scenario)

I am a long time Sony proponent, but this new program has a stink about it. Sony has for a long time discouraged discounting, but not to this level. It used to be that retailers could not publish lower price on their equipment. You had to call or make a visit to the retailer to get the better price. These are Sony Authorized stores that I am talking about. Then with the onset of the internet, you had to again call the retailer or submit you email address to get the price emailed to you. I had no problem with this and I know of some other vendors who engaged in it. Klipsch and Yamaha come to mind.
Now with the SURE program, these same Authorized vendors can't even offer discounted pricing. This is where I have a problem. A recent glance at a Ritz camera brochure has a footnote stating they can't offer their free printer promotion with a Sony DSLR purchase. Now I know that these printer have very little value, but this projects the wrong image to consumers.
I don't usually post my opinions anywhere, but this program has rubbed me the wrong way. I think it may hurt Sony's camera sales in the long run.

Thanks for the input Ken. You spent a lot of time explaining things and I appreciate the effort. You always make me feel better about Sony :)

I am curious about you stating that SURE has resulted in price drops. Right after SURE I did a check of online B&H prices vs those from the B&H catalog and magazine ads. I wanted to see what effect SURE had on prices. Most prices were up about 5-10% after SURE with the exception of the 70-200/2.8 SSM which actually dropped from $1995.95 to $1799.99. Of course we have the poster child 56 flash but that is likely due to its replacement with the 58 as you described. I just rechecked a few and it looks like the prices are the same as when SURE first went into effect. Am I missing something?

Thanks again for the input.

What this comes down to is a fundamental argument about choice vs price. There are people who feel very happy in an HMO for health care. It's almost free!!! Just go to the Doctor they choose, get the treatment they choose, go to their hospital. Even though it costs more I have almost always chosen the more expensive health-care with my choice vs theirs. This comes out of when I blew a disc in my back in 1991, after two years of the fully paid insurance they treated me just enough to stop the pain and 6 months later I was laid up in bed for 1-2 weeks. So I took the options where there was no pre approval person. I got a sports med doctor, Phys therapy and chiropractor working together. It cost me about $1500 out of my pocket. But from an average of 2 weeks a year lost work to 2 days, it was worth it. My wife also lost a good friend traveling in the UK who died waiting in queue for a test, that would have happened in hours in the US. The consensus of his friends with some medical background is he would be alive if he had fallen ill here.

This might give you some background about why I have the opinions I do that are often assumed to be Sony fanism. It comes down more to a strong personal preference choice. If the only place I can get a camera is big box or online discounter, I feel trapped.

Carl and Barry nailed it.. they just don't get it. This is about making Sony items more appealing to a wider range of retailers. Some things may have gone up. Some went down..

Here is the tracking page for the the A200 at streetprices.com
http://www.streetprices.com/Cameras/Digital_Cameras/SLR/10_Megapixel/Son...
down

A300
http://www.streetprices.com/Cameras/Digital_Cameras/SLR/10_Megapixel/Son...
Down

70-200 2.8
http://www.streetprices.com/Cameras/Digital_Cameras/Lenses/Telephoto/Son... No change from Sure

16-80
http://www.streetprices.com/Cameras/Digital_Cameras/Lenses/Sony-16-80mm-...
No change in lowest price

85mm 1.4
http://www.streetprices.com/Cameras/Digital_Cameras/Lenses/Telephoto/Son...
Slight uptick at june 1

F36am Flash
http://www.streetprices.com/Cameras/Digital_Cameras/Accessories/Flash/So...
Top price came down.. bottom price came up a bit. Now can be had for $165 I think $149 was the low mark.

F42am
http://www.streetprices.com/Cameras/Digital_Cameras/Accessories/Flash/So...
Major drop at June first

A700 grip
http://www.streetprices.com/Cameras/Digital_Cameras/Accessories/Batterie...
No change

A200/A3xx grip
http://www.streetprices.com/Products/Sony-VG-B30AM-SP22271129.html
Down then back to same

You get the picture.. for most products any price shift of the lowest price was minor some of the larger shifts were down...

So the affect on on most of us is almost nil, nadda, no big deal... except it bugs some people.

What Sony has said, walking into a smaller dealer that needs confidence is that Sony is supporting them in value is that we are not going to let "fire sales" or loss leader retailers pull the carpet out from underneath you. These local stores can have a lot of influence.. some of there in the Seattle area are very busy.. people like having some real support when spending hundreds of $$$. As I said.. SURE has gotten a local chain with a long rep to create some REAL space and presence for Alpha 2 bodies with the Pentax and Olympus. Long term is is good for us not only from choice.. but it helps build brand mind-share and confidence so Sony can sell more cameras with less marketing cost per unit.. and that can be pass down as competitive pricing against Nikon now and maybe Canon in the future..Right now they are #3 from early indications, I am sure #2 is a goal in 3-5 years.

Anyone here every been miffed, mad or PO'd hearing a dealer talk down the Alpha and steer a buyer to Canon. Consider this the incentive to get more of them to consider Sony.

Sony may lose a few sales at places where a deal or coupon makes the Canon cheaper.. but mostly even with SURE the Sony's are a better deal. Long term it means More stores with more customer types will sell Sony as an equal.

Eventually I don't think they will need it. I think it is short term (12-18 month program) to seed Sony back in places they lost or never had because of too much big box focus in their sales channel strategy.

Like my A700 IQ I care about the results... not dogma about how the images are process. I look at how the value of the system fits my needs, not worrying about some rules that I am sure are not unique.

Everybody likes getting a "great deal" when buying products, but unless you are Wal-Mart, targeting highly price-sensitive shoppers (retailers call them "cherry pickers") is not always the best and most profitable strategy. When customers get it into their heads that they will only buy at a discount, it leads to phony list prices and a never-ending spiral of price cuts and advertised "special sales." Check out department store ads for clothing and jewelry as one example of an industry that has painted itself into a corner with its pricing strategies.

Resale price maintenance is actually quite common for everything from snowblowers to watches to barbecue grills. One of its intended goals is to try to keep full-service retailers in business competing against discounters, category killers, box stores, online sellers, etc. In the home appliance business, for example, hundreds of independent appliance dealers have gone out of business unable to compete with the Best Buys, Home Depots, and Sears Roebucks of the world. Customers searching for a better deal would buy their appliances at a large box store and then expect the independent dealers to provide them with warranty service. How many of us buy our cameras and lenses online after "test-driving" them at a local camera shop, and then, for our convenience, expect that local independent camera dealer to stock a large inventory of bags, tripods, and accessories to use with those camera and lenses?

Another goal of resale price maintenance is to try to preserve healthy profit margins throughout the marketing channel. The fact of the matter is that when retailers engage in discount selling, it inevitably puts pressure on the manufacturer to lower its wholesale prices. Before you know it, customers are delighted but nobody is making any money.

Manufacturers also must balance prices with sales volume forecasts and manufacturing capacity. I don't know what Sony's manufacturing capacities are in the photographic market, but currently the Zeiss 16-80, the 18-250, the 28 f2.8, and the 50 f1.4 are all back-ordered on Sony Style. Not much motivation there to cut price.

Manufacturers must also segment their markets and design and price products accordingly. While limited numbers of professional photographers and enthusiasts with deep pockets will always want the latest and greatest equipment regardless of price, the mass market is less discerning and a lot more price sensitive. There will always be a lot more kit lenses sold than G lenses. Many SLR and DSLR owners will opt to buy Tamron, Sigma, Tokina, and other independently-made lenses with attractive performance/price ratios (which certainly is not a new phenomenon in the marketplace). Any many will, of course, search ebay for used lens bargains. (Anybody remember what it was like trying to find good used lenses 20-30 years ago?)

While I, too, would like to buy everything "wholesale," I am nevertheless grateful that Sony stepped in and rescued Konica Minolta's unprofitable photography business (just 2 short years ago let us remember). I am grateful that Sony decided to preserve the Maxxum/Dynax lens mount. I am grateful for the innovative products Sony has and continues to market. I wish Sony continued success and pray that it will not abandon its loyal band of Alpha users, as Olympus did when it pulled out of the film SLR market--leaving all us equally-enthusiastic OM users hanging in the wind.

As for all those proud Nikon and Canon users who refuse to acknowledge Sony as a serious player, they should think back prior to January 1989 when there was no such automobile as a Lexus and ask themselves which brand now dominates the U.S. luxury car market. For that matter, how many of our fathers bought Samsung or LG televisions? Competition and ever-changing consumer tastes assure us that no leading brand can afford to rest on its laurels.

Andy

Sony made a choice. It may not be a perfect implementation, but I have some sympathy for what I perceive as the motivation.

The choice Sony made was between supporting a dealer network or limiting themselves to a triad of A. direct marketing scheme via Sony Style, B. big box stores and C. mail order/internet vendors. The combined power of these three was pushing independent dealers out of the market. That's not a real big deal if you are marketing entry level consumer items. It's a very big obstacle when moving into high end merchandise.

I talked to the folks at Crick Camera in Kansas City nearly two years ago shortly after the A100 hit the US market. They didn't handle Sony. Tried to, wanted to, but couldn't (or wouldn't)navigate the obstacles to becoming a Sony dealer. Crick's is an old line full service shop that's been a KC icon since the 30's. The dealer formerly specializing in Minolta didn't have them either. The other independent shop is essentially Nikon . . . no Sony's there. If you lived in Kansas City, a SMSA of over 1 Meg population and a retail center serving probably double that market, and wanted to buy a Sony dslr you either went Best Buy or you went online. Sony Style has since moved into the market but wasn't there at the time.

I called the shop in Springfield, Lawrence Photographic, during the Best Buy blowout on A700. They are a Sony dealer and were absolutely demoralized at BB running the cameras out well below their dealer cost. I'd not be surprised if the angry emails and phone calls going up the line in Sony's supply chain was even more intense than the consumer mania we all saw going through the various forums online.

Big box stores are going to stock an entry level and one upgrade. That's it. Lenses will be consumer level only. Higher end stock just ain't a gonna be there. And when a Best Buy changes course on a stocking decision the results are brutal. Huge retailers want uniform shelf stock. They will be absolutely ruthless in acheiving that aim. That's not just cameras. That's everything.

Nikon and later Canon didn't not reach the status of industry benchmarks without local professional vendor support. Sony can't either. This SURE policy is a piece of something bigger and something new. Sony has always been protective of their premium status and price points. SLRs are different. The dealer network is essential for the long term success of the brand.

I could certainly be wrong. But that's how I see it.

sorry, double post

I sure hope Sony's camera business is doing better financially than their PlayStation 3!!!

http://videogames.yahoo.com/feature/sony-has-lost-over-3-billion-on-the-...

I believe most have the cause and effect reversed on this. I believe SURE drove the dumping of the A700 at BB, not the opposite. The dumping occured after Sony anounced the start date, not before.

As a marketing consultant I can understand why Sony implemented the sure program. Remember, Sony's main customers are the retailers not consumers. Retailers are the ones who buy the actual products from Sony. Keeping the price fair amongst all retailer will prevent the "Olympus deal" where Buy.com begin the trend of dropping the E-520 prices to under $550.00 which started a wave of heavy discounting by competitors (prices is back to normal now). So SURE keeps all retailer happy by keeping a even profit margin by every retailer not just those that can afford to buy more of Sony's products. YUP Sony is keeping their customers happy - good for them. This levels the playing field and will provide more market saturation of Sony's products. Like Ken stated previously Sony lowered the price of the entry level DSLR after implementing SURE in order to build on their user base, they are thinking long term strategy.

I do agree with Bfitzgerald and this is not just a European thing. It is just consumer reacting to adverse price changes differently. For me I bought the A300 because it is cheap compared to other SLR. As a consumer if I don't like the price I just buy what I feel would be of value for me. I like the A300 because I am able to get the fabled beercan at such a great price. Yes I work hard for my money so I don't believe in splurging it if I could get quality at a more affordable price somewhere else. JUST DON'T COMPLAIN about it. Buy what is valuable to you. Penny pinching is not a bad thing or exclusive to European countries (consider it wise consumers)- I'm living in the US!

"I believe most have the cause and effect reversed on this. I believe SURE drove the dumping of the A700 at BB, not the opposite. The dumping occurred after Sony anounced the start date, not before."

Sorry...but doesn't fit facts.
SURE was announced AFTER BB started pricing A700s at a discount..that started around $1000 and moved down.

The key date was March 2nd. Start of the Best Buy Fiscal Year 09... Please Note that Best Buy is again selling A700s for full price.

This is what probably happened.
FY 08 ends... items like the A700 cost is on the closed out Books for last year.. so all sales are just on the FY 09 books and you try to guess when to sell to get the most before something becomes, stale inventory.

Some manager either new at the job with the new year or catching up notes that Sony who only had two DSLRs for Christmas see three new cameras!! one is a 14 MP clearly a replacement for the old 12 MP A700.. and OMG!! the new model has more MP, Live view and is $300-400 less!!! we have do dump those 12 MP cameras before they are worthless like other Digicams..

Thus starts about 8 weeks deals as BB removes the "obsolete A700" from the computer and managers find they have 4-5 $1000 cameras that have been "replaced" with a new 14 MP camera with Live View.. That are marked as discontinued in the computer... meaning in most electronic will be worthless in 8 weeks. Let the games begin!!

Now things calm down.. last month BB starts carrying the A700 Grip which I said may mean they figured out the mistake and will bring back the A700.. This week the A700 returned to Bestbuy's website and it is not listed as Online only.. but none have hit the stores yet.

The bestbuy A700 sale was more than likely BestBuy with thousands of products not understanding the Sony strategy of three entry level DSLRs... Going from 2 cameras to 4 cameras overnight..